Pure Faith: A Bible Discussion Podcast

Unveiling Divine Law: From Family Gatherings to Theology (Matthew 5:17-20...Part 1)

November 14, 2023 Mitchell Heitkamp and Michele Waymire Episode 120
Pure Faith: A Bible Discussion Podcast
Unveiling Divine Law: From Family Gatherings to Theology (Matthew 5:17-20...Part 1)
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Ever attended a family gathering that left an indelible mark on your memory? In our latest episode, we relive the beautiful chaos of a recent family event, outlining the jubilance, the food frenzy, kids' antics, and the effect of a windy day on our overall experience. This episode is a delightful blend of heartwarming reminiscences and insightful discussions. 

As we immerse ourselves in nostalgic recollections, we also delve into the profound realm of theology in the second half. We scrutinize the verse Matthew 5:17-20, analyzing Jesus' relation to Old Testament law and the prophets, aiming to dispel common misconceptions. In addition, we ponder over the phrase, "until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." We explore the enduring nature of divine law and the intriguing concept of heaven on earth passing away, encouraging listeners to reflect on their significance in today's context. Join us, as we bridge the gap between everyday experiences and deep theological insights, and welcome your thoughts and interpretations on these compelling themes.

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Pure Faith Podcast, the podcast where we discuss all things Bible. My name is Michelle. Over here is my brother, mitchell. If you haven't done so already, we ask that you like this video, subscribe to our YouTube channel and don't forget to hit the notification icon to be notified when new episodes are released.

Speaker 2:

Do any announcements today?

Speaker 1:

Any announcements today? What kind of announcements? I don't know.

Speaker 2:

You always seem to have some sort of announcements to make.

Speaker 1:

I can tell all of you viewers who are listeners that, if we didn't tell you already that we are recording on different days due to my schedule, so the last episode was recorded on a Wednesday and today is Monday. So I came walking in here, I was being blown in by the wind as I was walking down the sidewalk. Mom helps to decorate the church and she puts flowers up and she hangs some outside. Well, her flower was blowing down the sidewalk, so I grabbed that quick, I put it back in and then so yeah, so today is Monday and it's very windy outside. So that's why Mitchell doesn't have the same wind blown. Look as I do. But I've got a wind blown. Look Kind of.

Speaker 1:

It's sticking up a little bit Is it, yeah, and we were able to gather with family. It would have been just yesterday, but Sunday we were able to gather with dads, brothers and sisters and all of our cousins and whoever can make it out at the barn, and we had a very nice, we had a beautiful day, we really did, and for all those who made it- it was a good turnout.

Speaker 1:

We did, we did. I think Mom said we had 110 people maybe there yesterday, including all the kids. There were a few cousins that could make it and there kids that weren't able to make it, and we missed those who weren't there. But boy, it was so nice to talk to the ones that we haven't seen in a while. So even the ones that live right here in town. I mean, there's some of them that live here in town and just because of different ages of kids and lifestyles and jobs, you know, we don't see everybody. So I mean, heck, I don't even see Matt, unless we have, well, it comes to church on Sunday, but if he misses church I won't see him until he comes again usually. So, like I said, our schedules are a little different, but it was, it was a beautiful day and I think everybody enjoyed themselves. So I think so, yeah, and we have plenty of food.

Speaker 2:

Woo, we had a lot of food, oh my goodness, it was good though.

Speaker 1:

It was good food.

Speaker 2:

Mom did most of the cooking.

Speaker 1:

She did man. Her ham was really good.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I didn't try the ham oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

I cannot try her ham. Oh, there's so much other stuff to eat, oh my gosh. So we had chicken we brought in from an outside source, but Mom always makes a really good ham, so I actually had that for dinner last night too. It was so good.

Speaker 2:

But I don't know if we got any leftovers.

Speaker 1:

You didn't get leftovers.

Speaker 1:

I don't know. I actually think Paige was there when Mom was giving leftovers, but I don't know. Well, if you don't have it yet, you'll probably get them, because we had some chicken leftover and Mom diced it all up today and vacuum sealed it for, like chicken wraps or I put it in tortilla soup, and I mean we can use it for all different kinds of things. So she did, she vacuum sealed it up and she just dropped off a couple of packs to me. So she said she got to the barn, so you'll probably get some, okay, so, anyhow, see, we come here to discuss this Again.

Speaker 2:

like you were saying, different schedules.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, different schedules. We just saw each other yesterday, though. Yeah, yeah but, yeah, but again, we're office preoccupied and I had his boys for a little while yesterday and they were supposed to nap. I took them at nap time none of them.

Speaker 2:

Really. Yeah, they were aings last night, none of them. We just assumed it was because of the time change.

Speaker 1:

No, eli, I told Paige that they didn't nap. Eli fell asleep in the vehicle on the way to Bersailles but and Zeke went, oh, he couldn't get his coat off in the back. See, he was just crying and carrying on it because you moved the strollers. He couldn't get his seatbelt buckled. I mean, he was having a heck of and I thought, oh my gosh, he's gonna fall right to sleep. And then, of course, we all know Ephraim was tired. Yeah, eli knows often. He was right up and we went to the house and we watched the Minions movie.

Speaker 2:

Were that at least good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they were pretty good. Yeah, we watched the movie and had snacks and we turned the lights out and we had. I thought maybe they might go off during movie time. No, they love Minions. I actually think Eli is a Minion.

Speaker 2:

He might be.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

He talks like a.

Speaker 1:

Minion yeah, he acts like a Minion. So cute story real quick. So we had stickers and they did maps too before we did Minions. So they were making their treasure maps and I had two things of stickers but you could tear them apart to make two different sets. And so Zeke ripped them apart and gave some to Eli and Eli went and I was looking at him and he goes. He means that I'm going to get in trouble because I tore these apart.

Speaker 1:

I said oh no, he's not going to be in trouble. I had no idea what he was talking about. But he knew sign language. Like he was like oh, he thinks I'm going to get this means he's going to get in trouble. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2:

So he has his own sign language.

Speaker 1:

But that's not.

Speaker 2:

It's not American sign language.

Speaker 1:

No, I was like they should really get him started on sign language. He can make some good money one day. I'm like he is two, he is three?

Speaker 2:

No, he is two, he's going to be three soon.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but yeah it was, it was funny.

Speaker 2:

He has his. He doesn't do American sign language.

Speaker 1:

He does Elijah sign language. That was so funny, like, okay, I don't know. So yeah, they were, they were very good, they had their snacks and we had it back home. So, yeah, good day. Yeah. So, other than that, anything else, anything in your world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on in my world.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you do Lots of prayers for Mitchell and his world Right. So but, you're going to yawn.

Speaker 2:

Time change yeah.

Speaker 1:

I could.

Speaker 2:

Well, I went in early today.

Speaker 1:

How did you? Work almost 12 hours today. Oh my yikes, yeah, because I went out to the house at 830 and you weren't there, or 820 or whatever, and you weren't there, I already had a couple hours in by then. Oh, my making up your time or your appointments.

Speaker 2:

No, I just using Monday and Tuesday. I tried to work close to 12 hours Just so I don't worry about time the rest of the week.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, good point. You probably get a lot more done in the weeks there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a lot more peaceful.

Speaker 1:

You probably get a lot more of the podcast done without me here, like the actual Bible study portion of it.

Speaker 2:

Probably.

Speaker 1:

It was interesting. It was interesting, yeah. So Mitchell gave me my. He gave me my notes today and, as you can see I don't know if you can see this or not, but it's red letters and so I started singing when I got in here.

Speaker 2:

So that you did.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that song, All right.

Speaker 2:

You're gonna sing it now? Nope, okay, we getting into the Bible study. Yeah, the red letters.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that was your that was the segue into the Bible study the red letters Matthew 517 through 20. You don't usually print this in color.

Speaker 2:

No, because my I don't have a fancy printer at home, it only does black. But I printed those out last night and then, like I said, Mondays I leave early. Well, I didn't grab them.

Speaker 1:

I'll see you to reprint them.

Speaker 2:

So I reprinted up.

Speaker 1:

Oh, here, oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's barely enough. I just went back there and one hand printed them, and they have a fancy printer here. At what?

Speaker 1:

They have a fan.

Speaker 2:

No, this is a church. This is a church.

Speaker 1:

I did not start the timer, so you'll have to keep an eye on it there. Okay, all right.

Speaker 2:

So, yes, we're starting a new section tonight. Like Michelle said, it's going to be Matthew 5, 17 through 20. And we're going to take our time with this.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So because well one I'm, I really struggled with trying to figure this out. You know this is something that you read over and, over and over again and you just kind of just glance over it. Well, whenever you actually start to dive into what this actually means, even commentators don't exactly know what this means, so it's very hard to understand. But 17 is not bad. 18 was a struggle, so we're going to take our time. I want to make sure you guys understand this.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And I'm going to try to do my best to hopefully make this make as much sense as possible, okay, and hopefully have it right because, like I said, I read a lot of different commentators. I read more for this than I normally do because it was.

Speaker 1:

You were trying to figure it out yourself. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:

Nice. So we're going to go ahead and read all of this. So it's Matthew 5, 17 to 20.

Speaker 2:

Do you not think that I've come to abolish the law or the prophets? I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away not in Iota not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So let's go ahead and start with verse 17. Again, verse 17 is do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. So one of the things that I always stumbled with with this particular verse is I always read the law or the prophets as two separate things.

Speaker 2:

Okay, because you have the law, and then you have the prophets, and I never understood what it meant by the prophets.

Speaker 1:

To abolish, to not come to abolish the prophets is what you're saying. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Like. That never really made sense to me, and instead of studying it, you just.

Speaker 1:

Just read it and just go on. You do that in some things with the Bible.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean, that's why we're studying it, that's why we're having you study it for us and tell us what your findings are.

Speaker 2:

So one of the big things that I learned once I started studying this is that you shouldn't be reading the law or the prophets separately, but together, and it isn't technically the law or the prophets, it's the law and the prophets. It's a proper translation.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

But this is just as or so whenever we talk about the law. Where do you learn what the law is? Learn about the law that you learn where we? The law is first given to the Israelites in the Pentateuch, the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament.

Speaker 2:

And then something that this doesn't say but implies was the prophets. It's actually the writings of the prophets. So the writing of the prophets. Where do you find the writings of the prophets in the Old Testament? Mm-hmm, so these two together, the law and the prophets, is just the way of saying in that day, at that time, it's their way of handing to what we now call the Old Testament.

Speaker 1:

The Old Testament.

Speaker 2:

But it wasn't the Old Testament back then. It was literally the law, law which was the Pentateuch, mm-hmm. And then it was various writings of prophets, but they weren't yet put together into one big book like the Old Testament. They weren't the Old Testament yet at that time. So Jesus couldn't say I didn't come to abolish the Old Testament because there was no Old Testament.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so Now, that's how we can look at it. Yes, so we understand it. Yes, okay.

Speaker 2:

So the point is that this is basically referring to the Old Testament. So it says do you not think that I have come to abolish the Old Testament, the laws, the prophecies, everything that is in?

Speaker 1:

the Old Testament, mm-hmm yeah.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm, so he didn't come to abolish that.

Speaker 1:

He came to fulfill it he came to fulfill it.

Speaker 2:

But another key thing that we need to learn or understand about this verse is two terms that are in here. The first one is fulfill.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And then the other one is abolish Mm-hmm. But to be more specific, it's how those two are working together, because Jesus saying he didn't come to abolish it, he came to fulfill it. Well, what does abolish actually mean? So, if you're going to abolish something, you're going to, you're going to nullify it, you're going to make a void, you're going to destroy it Right destroy it.

Speaker 1:

That's how I look at it abolish, destroy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, if you're going to make something void or destroy something in order to prevent that you wouldn't fulfill it, those words don't match up.

Speaker 1:

Right right.

Speaker 2:

They're not in line with each other. So let me I think I have something good here in my notes that you do Maybe, I think.

Speaker 1:

I have something good here in my notes.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yes. So abolish this would mean that it is destroyed or rendered null or void. So the opposite of that, this is what I was trying to find. So the opposite of abolish would be more like Preserve or protect, okay. So Jesus should be saying I didn't come, I'm. I'm not here to abolish the Old Testament, I'm here to preserve the Old Testament or I'm here to protect the Old Testament.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that would make sense.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, so these two words don't actually line up, but the way. Well, I'm not going to get into the actual Greek here, but the Greek word used, or the word that is translated as fulfilled or fulfill Almost every place where that is used it is talking about Fulfilling Old Testament prophecy. So bringing that Old Testament prophecy into fulfillment okay and In the case of Jesus, this Old Testament prophecy that is related to Jesus is messianic prophecy. It's prophecy about the Messiah and the future coming at the.

Speaker 1:

Messiah Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

So Jesus is just saying here, with the the words that he chooses to use, is he's didn't come to to destroy the Old Testament. He didn't come to make the Old Testament Null or void. He has come to fulfill the prophecies in that Old Testament and to Basically prove that he is Messiah.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

So that's what this first is that this I can't talk. That is what verse 17 is trying to tell us. Okay, so as we get into verse 18, this is the one that I. Really struggled with because. So let's go ahead and read it, for truly, I say to you until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law, until all is Accomplished yeah, I would just read over that so the reason this is so complicated is because there are two until statements.

Speaker 2:

Yeah in one sentence it's Until heaven and earth pass away. And then again we have until all is accomplished. But they're in the same sentence. Yeah so and, like I said, I struggled with this. I said, and so I forget what morning it was.

Speaker 1:

Well, today's Monday yeah, it's not Thursday.

Speaker 2:

But I think it was last Thursday okay. When I have my last appointment.

Speaker 1:

Friday.

Speaker 2:

Friday. Okay, so it's Friday morning, so I had to fast, so Food was on my mind, because when you have to fast and then you're driving, likes food, I do like food, and then you're driving an hour to go to the doctor and your belly is growling. Yeah, you're. You're thinking of every place you could stop to get food Between here and there. So I was thinking about food. Well, for some reason, that turned into an alternative. For this, which it did help me make sense of it.

Speaker 2:

Okay, All right so I think, I think it was, it was Inspired hmm, you were supposed to go to that point, so that way you could Work on this path. I was rude of rather eight.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

That's okay. So this is. This is my version to help under help make sense of this. So I tell you the truth Until the dinner party is over, not a crumb or droplet will be consumed. Until everybody has is finished, everybody has finished. See, that still doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1:

No, no, you have to read that again. I don't know where is that. Is that on my paper? It's right. Right here? Yeah, okay. No, you didn't write it all out. It's on this paper. We're right here, so that's why I'm trying to. Okay, so you didn't write it all out for me. That's why I'm like wait, where is all this? Okay, read it again. All right, there, it is Okay.

Speaker 2:

Whoo, I tell you the truth. Until the dinner party is over, not a crumb or droplet will be consumed until everybody has finished. Yeah, it's still a mind bender, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But you have to look at it, I mean. So let's tear down this, my version of this. So let's start with the first until and not statement. So it says until the dinner party. What is it? It's over, until the dinner party is over.

Speaker 1:

It's over.

Speaker 2:

Some or droplet will be consumed. So this is saying that. That makes no sense to me, Basically. Well, nobody is going to eat at the dinner party until the dinner party is over, and then everybody's going to eat.

Speaker 1:

But why would you eat after the party?

Speaker 2:

Don't blame me.

Speaker 1:

I'm going off of what Jesus said okay. All right, okay, okay, I'm listening.

Speaker 2:

So yes, that it's confusing.

Speaker 1:

It is so confusing.

Speaker 2:

Why would nobody eat until after the party? It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1:

No no.

Speaker 2:

But then you bring in the last until statement, which again mine is until everybody is finished. So now this becomes a statement about the fact that there is a dinner party. So that's just Okay, there's a dinner party.

Speaker 1:

Oh, there's a dinner party.

Speaker 2:

Mind you, I've not had dinner yet, so my belly starts growling Bye, so this is very appropriate.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So the fact that there is a dinner party and everybody is going to eat at the dinner party, yes.

Speaker 1:

So, but we can't eat anything yet.

Speaker 2:

Well.

Speaker 1:

Until everybody's finished.

Speaker 2:

So there is a dinner party where everybody is going to eat.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And the party won't end until everybody has eaten.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So at the same time nobody will even taste the food or taste the drink. So no crumb or droplet will be consumed until everybody consumes it together.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So bringing in that last until statement is just like. Well, so the first until statement is there is a dinner party. The last one is saying nobody is going to.

Speaker 1:

Be alone.

Speaker 2:

Well, everybody, see now I'm confusing myself again. So the last until statement is everybody's going to eat.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So you have the start of the dinner party, you have the end of the dinner party. Well, nobody is going to basically be able to sample the food and the drink until it's the time for the dinner party. Then everybody is going to be able to eat and drink together at the dinner party.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And then, once the dinner party, everybody is done eating, then the dinner party is finished. Does that make any sense? Like I said, this is very challenging.

Speaker 1:

Very challenging. So, so let's go back to Okay so.

Speaker 2:

Let's go back to the original.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

So this says for truly I say to you which also this is the first time, this little statement, we see that a lot, you know truly I say to you, or truly, truly I say to you, or something along those lines. This is the first time that phrase is being used and it will be used many, many times throughout the rest of the Gospels. But anyways, for truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away. So we know that there is a heaven and earth. So, going off my little example, we know there's a dinner party.

Speaker 2:

We know there's a dinner party, so we know there's heaven, we know there's a earth and it is alive, it is healthy, it is thriving. So then the next statement is not in Iota, not a dot will pass from the law. In Iota and a dot, those are just small little punctuation marks that they used in Hebrew writing For us today. It'd be like you know, you've got to make sure you dot your eyes across your teeth, it'd be something along that. Okay, it'd just be like your period, your comma, you know, just making sure everything is there. So by Jesus saying that not a dot or a niota will pass from the law, that threw me off. So by saying that not a niota, not a dot will pass from the law, that it just means the law won't change.

Speaker 1:

The law is not going to change.

Speaker 2:

The law is going to stay exactly the way it is.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And it is just going to be the way it is.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

You know, Jesus didn't come here to change the law.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

Now, granted, as Christians, we don't view the law in the same way. We don't interpret the law the same way.

Speaker 1:

Okay, because since Jesus has, came.

Speaker 2:

we live in a different covenant. We don't, we're not living under the covenant of law, we're living under the covenant of grace. So we the law is still there, we can still learn from the law, but we're not under that law.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So the law hasn't changed.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

It's just we're not meant to follow that law as Christians. So not a niota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished. What does that mean? So all of what is accomplished, and we don't have any good information as far as what this actually means.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So my theory, my thought, mine. So I'm no scholar or anything.

Speaker 1:

No, you're not.

Speaker 2:

So my best guess that I have is so we know Jesus was here. Jesus fulfilled a lot of prophecy.

Speaker 1:

He did.

Speaker 2:

But Jesus didn't fulfill all the prophecies. I mean the big one, especially in relation to Jesus, is that he's coming back. Well, Jesus hasn't came back yet, so that alone says that not all was finished.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

There's still more that needs to be completed. So, though Jesus fulfilled a lot of prophecy at its first coming, there's still going to be a second coming. But the Bible also tells us that whenever Jesus comes again, there's going to be a millennial kingdom where heaven comes down to earth. So we know that's going to happen. That hasn't happened yet, so not all was finished. So we got to go out past that millennial kingdom before we can even get to all that's finished Now. Once we get to that point now there's a lot of other unknowns in there, but it's not going to be until after that millennial kingdom, at least before all prophecy is fulfilled.

Speaker 2:

Well, once every single prophecy in the Bible is fulfilled, then that's when we go back to beginning and heaven and earth will pass away. But this isn't saying, like we know, that heaven is eternal.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, yep.

Speaker 2:

And we're not necessarily saying that the earth is going to just all of a sudden go away yeah.

Speaker 2:

But, like I said, whenever we get to that millennial kingdom, heaven is going to come down to earth. Well, at the end of the millennial kingdom I again I don't know, I'm speculating, but it's very possible heaven is going to go back up into heaven and there will no longer be heaven on earth. Therefore, heaven and earth, or heaven on earth will pass away. And then we're getting to more of this end times, and at that point, if heaven and earth do pass away, because all is finished, then the law will then become null and void. At that point, because it's been fulfilled, it's all been fulfilled. That's my thinking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if it's right.

Speaker 1:

Sounds good, but yeah.

Speaker 2:

It sounds good? Yeah, but take it with a grain of salt.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So, here's your own study, Test me and if you have any other ideas. If you find something else that I missed, send us an email.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, reach out to it. Yeah, not to us Send them a shell first.

Speaker 2:

She likes to read all that stuff.

Speaker 1:

I love it Love it.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, leave a comment. Yeah, send us an email.

Speaker 1:

Tell me what you think, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I'm not saying I have this right, we've been loving here and I would love your other opinions and ideas, yeah, about how this actually were other ideas, how this could work. But this is kind of what the Lord showed me and this is like you said. It kind of makes sense, it kind of does yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, Well, thanks for a great explanation, well, hopefully.

Speaker 1:

I like Mitchell's view, but again, like you said, if you've got another view, send it to him, because he loves to look at that stuff. You can send it to her. No, don't, Okay. So we thank you. We thank you for joining us. Please leave a comment on this video or go to our contact page at PureFaithLivingcom to send us a message. And, as always, if you like what you hear, then we ask that you share this show with others so we can all spread the good word of Jesus Christ. Don't forget to subscribe and we will talk to you again next time.

Speaker 2:

Have a blessed day everybody. Bye everybody.

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